On this edition of the show Alok Jha meets Brian Clegg to discuss his latest book Dice World: Science and Life in a Random Universe. Brian is a celebrated science author and communicator and in his latest book he tackles the conflict between the very human desire to see pattern and design everywhere and the fundamental randomness of the universe.

Also on the podcast, news broke this week of a potentially life-changing breakthrough in the treatment of what is known as modic-related lower back pain and the role of a relatively common bacterial infection. The scientist who battled for more then 12 years to establish the evidence and test a cure, Hanne Albert, talks to Guardian science correspondent Ian Sample about her momentous medical discovery.

Hanne recommends a site where people can cross-check their symptoms to see if they suffer from modic-related back pain.

Ian and Alok also look at some of this week's space-related news including the nature of the water crystals found on the moon and recent Nasa announcements on its Mars exploration strategy.

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